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Talk:Badass Rank
Badass tokens Does anyone know how many Badass tokens will be available? MyWetDream (talk) 16:56, August 29, 2012 (UTC) :good question. page needs a category though. 18:11, August 29, 2012 (UTC) I've added the Gameplay category. Analysis of videos suggests that challenges are repeating and that you need n^1.8 ranks to get n tokens, so there seems to be no limit to the number of tokens you can get, but each token will take more ranks than the last. --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 18:33, August 29, 2012 (UTC) Also, proposal to add a link to this page to Template:contentsBlands2. --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 18:44, August 29, 2012 (UTC) :done. 20:15, August 29, 2012 (UTC) Badass Rank and Token data So the conjectured formula seems to perform quite well. Edit: Changed prediction to number of tokens assuming progress bar is linear in Badass Rank towards next level. --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 15:29, August 31, 2012 (UTC) :nicely done. well supported. well made page. 15:23, August 31, 2012 (UTC) Added new data from PAX Prime. It looks like the requirements may be rounded down instead of up. --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 22:28, August 31, 2012 (UTC) Hmm, could be round-to-nearest also. Unfortunately the first token where the difference would be distinguishable is the 11th. The floor function (truncation on cast from float to int) is slightly simpler from a programming standpoint, but that isn't the strongest evidence. --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 17:01, September 1, 2012 (UTC) Value Buy Regarding the recent edit: Badass points spent have an effect past the tenth of a percent The value of different points (Gun Damage, Melee Damage, Critical Hit Damage) decreases linearly in value Disagree on both counts. The first point is already taken care of by the quantitative mathematical analysis, which the new text does not provide anything equivalent to. As for the second point, if all stats were weighted the same, I would be advocating for the most uniform distribution. The "linearity" comes in the assumption that e.g. 2.0% in one stat is twice as good as 1.0% in that stat, not that all stats are equally valuable. I will edit to make this clearer. If I were to argue against the least uniform distribution, I would say that the stats beyond the top few might be a little too unbalanced. --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 17:27, September 19, 2012 (UTC) Although even highly unbalanced stats can be a good idea. For example, I'm meleeing less than 20% of the time, so I would take even +0.25% Gun Damage over +1.0% Melee Damage. That's at least 81 Tokens or +27.0% in Gun Damage before I want to take even 1 Token in Melee Damage. Maybe I'll give some more examples of different stat distributions and their tradeoffs. --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 17:56, September 19, 2012 (UTC) Seem to have misplaced my password. Glad you're watching this page; sorry if I was overzealous. Should have posted here first. The first point was actually a math error on my part involving a misconception about rounding/truncating these functions. I thought that if it were rounding/truncating, we'd see a +0.3% increase after a +0.2% increase at some point. Good catch. The second point is worded a little poorly on my part, and I see that we actually agree on it. What I meant was that the least uniform distribution you described is mathematically optimal if the assigned values of each increase (the value of 1% gun damage versus the value of 1% melee damage, for instance) fall along some regular line. Hypothetically, you could have the optimal setup be virtually any array of spent points ("highly unbalanced", for example). The least uniform distribution is not special or even really applicable to this situation. --The user who made the bad edit No problem--this dialogue helps make the analysis clearer. You're right that for any distribution there is a set of valuations that makes that distribution optimal (and vice versa). The least uniform distribution is only special because it is in some sense the "most unbalanced" distribution that you can actually achieve (due to only being able to pick from a list of five random options each time). Since the optimal (under the linear approximation) is proportional to the fourth power of the valuation, even a moderate difference in valuation between options can produce a very unbalanced optimal distribution, which is why I think the least uniform distribution is close to optimal for many valuations. Though it may just be that I personally have uneven valuations; I've certainly seen other people essentially say that they have more even valuations than I do. I'll reword things to be softer on this point. --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 23:02, September 19, 2012 (UTC) Draw of five options not selected at random? I and some others have started to suspect that the options are not selected at random, and rather the less-used choices appear more often. We'll need more statistics to know for sure. --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 15:59, September 20, 2012 (UTC) Not random... mostly. I have refused to put any tokens into Elemental Chance, Elemental Damage, Grenade, or Melee damage. For the last 20+ tokens, those four and one other stat were the ones that popped up. GabedonChillweasel (talk) 16:09, September 20, 2012 (UTC) If it is not a uniform distribution, the next simplest possibility is a weighted distribution with weights dependent on the number of tokens spent on that option? Some simple possibilities for n tokens spent: weight = 1 / (1 + an) weight = exp(-an) --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 17:00, September 20, 2012 (UTC) I have no numbers but another qualitatve anecdote similar to Gabedon's. I have had melee damage and grenade damage among my options at every level going back many dozens of badass tokens. These are the two stats I have (almost, both sit a 1.7 for two tokens) entirely neglected and have not choosen in a very long time. Among my other stats I have spent 18-22 tokens each other than elemental effects and gun accuracy which are more slightly neglected at 8-15, and are also more prone to popping up though not so constantly. 00:17, October 6, 2012 (UTC) I've gotten negative stats after using a token at the very beggining of the game. Anyone else have this happen to them?That Damn Ingrid (talk) 10:24, September 22, 2012 (UTC) The only negative value I've seen is from Shield Recharge Delay. It's basically making the time you have to wait for your shield to start recharging shorter. GabedonChillweasel (talk) 22:43, September 22, 2012 (UTC) Strategy section "Top 10" distribution bugs out Due to a bug with the draw of the five options, you can't use Top 10 past a certain point. After which, the game will only choose Maximum Health for the fifth choice. If one tries Top 11, you get a little further before the game replaces two options with Maximum Health. The same with Top 12, three options with Maximum Health. Reference this picture. The best balance i've found is evenly distribute in your top 10 to 12 options, and everytime you start seeing Maximum Health (when it already has a higher value then your other options) put the next several points into the options you normally don't use. Then you will begin to see the regular options again. 22:40, October 15, 2012 (UTC) Using "top 10" I hit the 'max health wall' as well when all the stats I was building were at about 12%. I choose to run with it because at this point and with a focus on killing the 'raid' bosses I felt max health was one of the stats I was more interested in anyway and didn't care to invest in the less useful ones in order to achieve diversity again. Then when I was over 15% max health, or about 10 tokens ahead of anything else, it gave me a couple other options again. As long as your class/spec preferences leave you reasonably valuing health it seems sound to let it start to trend higher rather than investing in a few of the weaker options in order to attain more diversity. 08:06, October 22, 2012 (UTC) Gun damage modifier not exactly as listed' I was playing around trying to figure out how damage modifiers interact in BL2, and I noticed that my damage values were always slightly off what I calculated they should have been. After further investigation I discovered that the damage modifier is just slightly different than the value listed in the badass rank page. when using 0 talents, a 25242 damage sniper rifle, the bee with a 52502 amp bonus, and a listed gun damage bonus of 8.7%, the actual damage I did was 79949 25242*x+52502=79949 x=27447/25242 x=8.7354409% a slight gain When I was testing it earlier, at +8.4% gun damage, using a 14359 damage pistol (I also had a 50% gun damage talent activated for this test): 14359(1.5+x)+52502=75242 x=(22740/14359)-1.5 x=8.36757434% a slight loss this time I personally have no idea what sort of a mechanic is causing this discrepancy, but I figured I'd put it out there and maybe someone else might have some ideas Cautiously exuberant (talk) 15:42, October 29, 2012 (UTC) : This is just a demonstration that the formula for the bonus is exactly correct, and the game uses the full precision value internally even though it rounds it to one decimal point for display. 17 tokens gives 17^.75 = 8.3721440286%. This rounds to 8.4%, but if you use all the digits it predicts damage of 22740.656 in your second example case. Truncate that to an integer and it's exactly the 22740 damage that you got from your pistol. : 18 tokens gives 18^.75 = 8.738851891% bonus. This rounds to 8.7%, but using all of those digits it predicts 27447.861 damage. Truncate to an integer, and that's exactly the 27447 pre-amp damage you got from your sniper rifle. 05:47, October 30, 2012 (UTC) Stat Limit? Anyone know if there is a limit to how high the stats can go, or is it possible to get -100% shield recharge delay (in theory) would that make your shields invincible? :Gearbox has said that there is no limit and I've seen players with modified ranks that make them invincible (i.e. impervious to damage and killing Hyperius in one shot). Conceivably you could gain enough ranks to become invincible, although it is not really practically possible without cheating. Just.kevin (talk) 15:21, January 9, 2013 (UTC) ::Even then, chances are a "-100%" boost will net you an actual "50%" improvement. happypal (talk • ) 16:26, January 9, 2013 (UTC) ::::So how does the game figure the % increases/decreases? I'm playing a Siren and it occured to me that if I could get a +100% elemental chance through badass ranks (am I allowed to swear if it's part of the name?) or close enough for there to be little practical difference, then that would be 5 skill points I wouldn't have to put into Flicker. Say I have a gun with a 10% chance to enflame and +50% effect chance, is my chance to enflame 15% or 60%? And where did you get the 50% number for shield recharge delay?CoughingFrog (talk) 17:56, January 9, 2013 (UTC) :::In your above example the chance to proc would be 15%. Negative bonuses in Borderlands follow a 1/(1+x) formula. The recharge rate of the shield pictured on the Maylay Shield page is 7.57 with a -100% shield recharge delay from BA ranks the delay would effectively be 3.785 or 50% of the total delay. Just.kevin (talk) 19:52, January 9, 2013 (UTC) Difficulty Does the difficulty level increase when people in the room have high badass rank? I feel like in some games I can just wreck and pretty much solo the map alone, while in others Im constantly going down and just getting single-shot by enemies as soon as I get back up, while another guy is dominating. Im not talking about games with fewer players or lower level players, In each case Im comparing a full room with all lvl 61 players and I always use the same gear. I cant tell if Im losing my mind or if the difficulty is really scaling (to an extent) to compensate for player stats. : There isn't Badass Rank difficulty scaling. Otherwise having four players with 20% badass rank would be no different than four players with 1% badass rank, making badass rank meaningless (except to unfairly punish those with low rank or force players to play with others of the same rank). Ilovefuzzykittens (talk) 08:47, May 28, 2013 (UTC) Optimal distribution MOVED FROM MAIN PAGE Suppose one makes the approximation that the utility is a weighted sum of the bonuses of the stats. Let v'' be the weighting of a particular stat. The marginal benefit of spending one more Token in that stat is then proportional to ''vx-0.25 where x'' is the number of Tokens one has spent in that stat and ''v is the valuation of a 1% bonus in that stat. For an optimal distribution, this should be constant across all stats, which means that x should be proportional to ''v''4, or equivalently, the bonus in each stat should be proportional to ''v''3. For example, if one values one stat twice as much as another, one should spend sixteen times as many Badass Tokens on that stat, gaining eight times the bonus. ---- There is no practical way to tie both a valuation to each stat and also control how those stats appear as selected choices. The distribution of choices (the less something is chosen, the more it appears) prevents min/maxing this way unless the valuations themselves have enough disparity to include practical choices. While the theory is sound, the game mechanics prevent the very "optimal" goal it speaks of. It was taken from the main page for this reason. If/when there is a practical tie to selected choices, it will be reinstated. 09:58, July 13, 2013 (UTC) What about Prestige? I'm just giving a suggestion, but should there be a section that talks about Prestige? Since this resets ALL of your character's challenges and I'm very OCD about completing everything 100%, I haven't acctually tried this myself as people say some challenges become impossible to redo. Oddly, when I tested myself when the reset option appears, I counted 486 levels, contrary to 485, and I triple checked my challenge level total before I reached that number. Could it possibly be a rare occurence or maybe I just miss counted every time? SkullFire58 (talk) 16:49, April 22, 2014 (UTC) Badass Rank in Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel I know the pre-sequel game has been out <1 day, but it should be noted that for non level-specific challenges, the amount of Badass Rank awarded for completing levels 4 and 5 of those challenges has been reduced to 25 BAR for level 4, and 50 BAR for level 5 as opposed to 50 bar for level 4 and 100 BAR for level 5 in Borderlands 2. It should also be noted that after every ___ (amount uncertain, possibly but not likely random) of BAR earned in the pre-sequel, there is a small icon that changes next to the amount of BAR earned on the BAR screen as well as next to the player's current character level on the HUD. ADg2k12 (talk) 22:59, October 17, 2014 (UTC) * That icon appears to change every 750 BAR - at least, it did for me in the 5750-8900 range so far. Specifically, that icon very likely changes at 6500, 7250, 8000, and 8750. (You also get a big "New Badass Rank Reached" announcement the next time you enter that UI.) Projecting backwards (I'm guessing I can't do this without resetting my entire BAR or getting a new game), it would have changed at 5750, 5000, 4250, 3500, 2750, 2000, 1250 - so that pattern probably changed from something else back then. ....The icon itself just seems to be of some quantity of money, and has no other effect on gameplay AFAIK. I took no screenshots of it, but for those who care, the icon was some amount of coins at 5750-6500, then five stacked coins with three loose, then a stack of bills, then a stack plus one coin, then a stack plus two coins at 8750+. BuddyPharaoh (talk) 02:32, November 10, 2014 (UTC) Proposed Magnitude section changes (Long) Proposed changes for the Magnitude section (Actual text for proposed change at end): (Using wiki data throughout, the excel chart) The equation to calculate the magnitude is simply Magnitude=#ofTokens^.75(Or 3/4) (Simplified down to m=n^3/4 or y=x^3/4) and then is rounded to the tenths. This works for all values, and corresponds perfectly with the Excel chart listed in the magnitude section. The listed equation isn't wrong, it's just over complicated (magnitude=round(((#ofTokens)^.75)x10)/10 is a bit redundant, multiplying by 10, then dividing by 10. I'm new to wiki's so I could very well be missing something, but why is the equation shown burdened by extra calculations? The final value is already using tenths, we don't need to shift the decimal around for rounding. I also think showing how to calculate the value of one additional token could be useful. For the following, please bear in mind that I have no experience editing wiki's, and most of my web coding knowledge is hopelessly obsolete. I've copied and edited what I could. Actual changes: Magnitude (Heading code removed, because I'm an idiot, ignore it, and this) Spending Badass Tokens on a particular stat has diminishing returns. The formula for the magnitude of the bonus by the number of Badass Tokens is the following rounded to the nearest tenth: \text{Bonus in Percent} = (\text{Badass Tokens spent on stat})^{0.75} To calculate the value added by each additional token, you perform the following equation, again rounded to the nearest tenth: \text{Bonus added in Percent} = ((\text{Tokens to be spent on stat})^{0.75})-((\text{Tokens already spent})^{0.75}) Keep in mind that while the game displays a rounded value, the game uses an unrounded value when performing it's own calculations during gameplay. This table covers the bonuses for 0-27 tokens spent, and includes an alternate equation for approximating values. ((Proceeds as normal.)) I would keep the links, the excel spreadsheet makes a handy cheat sheet for those who don't feel like bringing up their calculator. Sorry if this is all redundant, wasted time, etc, just want to help. :) Edits: Clarifications, tone change, and additions (part on game using unrounded values, reflecting talk above here, added signature). Additional edit: Coding by suggestion --Teatime42 (talk) 23:47, March 18, 2015 (UTC) Corrupt profile and Awesome Badass Stats So, I was playing online a few weeks back with a guy I know who is a modder. He was helping me speed farm baddies because he can one shot splat things. Well, we returned to Sanctuary so I could drop off stuff at my vault when he goes to try to turn in one of my quests (after I told him not to). I was sitting clost to my xBox, so I yanked the power (not the greatest move, but I was pissed. When I came back it said it couldn't access my profile and had me download it again from xBox Live. When I logged in I noticed the game was going pretty smooth. Eventually I noticed that all of the stat boosts from Badass Tokens were at 200.1%, but my Badass Rank hadn't changed. I'm not complaining, it actually makes the game feel more even. I didn't want to share it with Gearbox or xBox because they might "fix" it. Just thought it was an interesting thing to share.